Power Steering And Starter Motor

[Zaw]

Dear All,

I have a simple simple question. I have a 2001 2.3 Ford Galaxy. I have been having a lot of trouble with the starter motor failing. It had originally been though that a faulty aircon system had been the cause. However, this has been repaired and it has one again failed.

 

The mechanics are now suggesting that the fault is with the power steering. Is this possible?

 

I'd really appreciate advice. I have 4 kids and we depend on the car and it has become completely unreliable at the moment.

 

All the best.

[marinabrid]

i doubt if the power steering is anything to do with a starter problem,  have you had a new starter fitted ?  why and what did they do to the air con system to make that responsible for the starter problem ?    

sounds a bit odd to me,   hope you are not being taken for a ride by this garage  

if the starter was changed and it was a recon unit   there are some very dodgy  ones out there  but all should come with a 12 month warranty

Edited April 23, 2014 by marinabrid

[SilverBeast]

Please describe the symptoms as you see them, rather than what the garage has told you?

(i) Does it NOT turn over at all? All the time? Some times but getting worse?

(ii) Does it turn over slowly or as "normal" ?

[BrianH]

Any idea what brand of starter was used (if its RTX from Euro car parts then they seem to be slated for being rubbish elsewhere).

 

It could be the relay 30 problem if its fairly random - info in the faq section for that issue. Need more info really as others have mentioned above.

[Zaw]

Thanks for your replies. I've had two new starter motors fitted. They fail completely. The last time was at a service station on the M4. The AA guy jumped started it by towing me along. The starter completly fails - it does not turn-over at all. It is completely random - starts fine for a few weeks then, after stopping, fails completely. Not sure what the 'relay 30 problem' is but will look into it.

 

Thanks for all your help!

[Zaw]

And the compressor was changed in the aircon as the garage said this was causing the starter motor to fail. It has been changed, a new one fitted, and the starter did fail again - I was stuck at a service station on the way to Heathrow where my eldest son had to be collected.

 

With the relay 30 problem - which I have just Googled, would that make it appear that the starter motor has failed? And, on removing the starter motor, would there be any indication of why it has failed?

 

Thanks for all your help. I have 4 kids and an unreliable car is a nightmare.

[SilverBeast]

This link details the Relay 30 problem in the Frequently Asked Questions section of this site.  The contributor also had a 2001 2.3

 

Yes it does stop the starter motor turning as described in the link.  Basically some solder joints in the relay fail over time.  It's fairly common. They can usually be remade but most people just replace the relay.  It's relatively quick and a lot simpler than replacing the starter motor. Should be cheaper too!

 

Were the removed starter motor's tested to make sure they were faulty after removal?

[Zaw]

Thanks for that. Whether the starter motors were tested to see whether they were actually faulty is something I will ask the garage. If it is the Relay 30 problem then surely all the money I have paid should be refunded.

[BrianH]

Thanks for that. Whether the starter motors were tested to see whether they were actually faulty is something I will ask the garage. If it is the Relay 30 problem then surely all the money I have paid should be refunded.

At very least they should do you a reasonable job of fixing it if relay 30 is the problem. Usually if it is relay 30 then the door led (the one on the edge of the door) behaves differently when it won't start so its worth looking at that to start with if you have access to it now.

[Zaw]

It is with the garage now so I cannot check. I have paid 950 pounds to have this repaired. If it is the Relay 30 problem, should they refund in some way the money they have charged for not diagnosing the original problem????? - which is relatively easy to fix.

[marinabrid]

jeeez  thats a lot of cash,  i would be onto trading standards and see what they say, if they have mis diagnosed  it should be up to them to put right. Theses galaxys in the wrong garages hands with mechanics who don't know much about them is not a good situation.

[steve329]

Any car at the hands of someone who doesn't know them inside out is always going to be potentially a bad situation - the main dealers may be more expensive - but there is a reason for that - they know their own cars.

 

I will be interested to hear if you get any money back, I have been in a similar situation to you before, but I just let it go, the way I see it I trust my garage - they always say "we think it's this that's causing the problem, it's going to cost this much, do you want us to try changing it?" If that's not what's causing the problem then at least it has been eliminated.

This is why I have one back to fixing my cars myself (well, the bits I can anyway!)

[Zaw]

Thanks for that Steve - the car is at the Garage and they have not yet checked if the starter motor has in fact failed as they are concentrating on a problem with a leak in the power steering.

 

Can I ask a more general question which might be of use to others in the future: What, asside from the Relay 30, could cause a starter motor in a Galaxy to fail, randomly, 3 times? We must be able to narrow this down? As with many of us who own a Galaxy, I have 4 kids and this becomes an issue of safety and extreme inconvenience. Thanks everyone.

[SilverBeast]

Battery Junction Box? Not sure if it would cause starter to fail, but the current for the starting circuit must pass through it as it is the only high current link to the battery. If it's faulty and drops voltage then all sorts of weird things happen with the electrics.  Would expect dash lights to flash and clicking from relays near drivers knee while trying to start if this was the case.

 

The garage will have been blaming the aircon or power steering pump as these are both driven from the auxiliary drive belt, along with the alternator (which charges the battery - sorry if you already know this but it can be useful for viewers trying to fix their problems who don't).  Any drag on these can put extra load on the engine, and hence starter motor when starting.  Personally I wouldn't expect it to damage the starter motor, and the drag would always be there and I would think it would be noticeable when driving (decreased performance).

(i) Alternator - has a one way clutch in it which can seize, wouldn't expect it to affect starting though.

(ii) Air con - Pump can seize. If you turn the aircon off (ECON on Climate Control models) should disconnect as it has an Electric Clutch. Again I would expect driveabilty to be noticeably worse if it was seized.

(iii) Aircon has an electric clutch - This could seize on? Not sure if ECU switches off aircon while cranking to reduce load - it would make sense to do so - but would cause extra load when starting if clutch has seized in the connected position.

(iv) Power Steering pump - This is always driven, but if it is dragging/seizing it would give extra load when starting.  You have probably noticed the extra load/whine when steering is on lock while parking.  This is because that is the point at which the power steering is working at it's hardest and putting the most load on the engine.  If it is parked with the steering on full lock (not to be confused with the steering lock on - that is the mechanical security lock in the steering column) then there will be extra load on the engine.

 

I have been reading this Galaxy Forum,since before I bought mine, in 2010, and have read most of the threads in the MKII forum since that point and I don't recall reading any particular issues with the starter motor that you are describing.  Unfortunately it doesn't mean it can't happen though.

[Zaw]

That is an absolutely amazing help - I do hope it is also useful to others now or in the future. I think with my Galaxy they are blaming the Power Steering pump. They claimed to have fixed this several weeks ago (it was about 500 of the 950 pounds), but seemingly not.

 

There is some sort of sequence when my starter motor goes. There is definitely a noticable 'whine' while parking, particularly on full lock (the garage lamed low sterring wheel fluid at one point). Also, it has never failed at home, but 3 times, twice in supermarket car parks, once at a sevice station 20 miles after leaving home. Is there some sort of logic here? That is fails after a shortish drive but never first thing, cold as it were? Would this make sense with a failed Power Steering pump?

 

Really great help and I do help it helps others.

[chrispb123456]

Looking through the wiring diagram for relay 30 or K108 power relay as the TIS manual calls it.

I don't have experience with the 2.3 engine but seems to me it has no connection with the starter motor, what does have a connection with the starter circuit is the crypto transponder relay which is part of the immobiliser circuit.

Am wondering if this is an immobiliser problem either with the chip in the key or transceiver.

[SilverBeast]

The power steering whine, particularly on lock, is normal.

 

If it is immobiliser related like Chris suggests.

(i) Try a spare key if you have one.

(ii) Make sure you don't have any other car keys on your keyring as if they also had a passive immobiliser chip built into them then this may interfere.

[Zaw]

Are you suggesting that the entire problem could be solved by using a spare key? That is not possible, surely?

[SilverBeast]

There is a chip in the key that is paired with the immobiliser. It is passive in that it doesn't use a battery. If there is a problem with the immobiliser it stops the car from being used. A coil around the ignition switch connects to the chip wirelessly to check it is valid for use in that car. This prevents someone from cutting a key and just using that.

 

I'm not sure how it works on the petrol engine cars. In some instances it stops the starter from turning over. On the diesels the car will start but only run for a few seconds. The diesel engined cars use vw engines, but the 2.0 and 2.3 petrol engines are Fords so I'm not sure how it inhibits use. You are in the right place for someone to tell you though. When the immobiliser inhibits starting the led on the drivers door flashes in some fashion, again someone more knowledgeable will be along to let you know how.

 

If you have another key with a similar passive chip in it on the same keyring it can interfere with it and can cause it not to start. I would expect a garage to know this and have eliminated that as the problem though.